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dndhound
Shrew
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 10
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 Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:30 am Post subject: Using bardiche while prone |
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| Had a Character recently using a bardiche after getting tripped and he decided to stay prone in stead of standing up. what are the effects while prone to using a 2-h weapon? would feats such as cleave work while prone? is the only effects -4 to hit, and -4 DV? |
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Infidel-X
Weasel
Joined: 04 Mar 2004
Posts: 49
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:50 am Post subject: Re: Using bardiche while prone |
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| dndhound wrote: | | Had a Character recently using a bardiche after getting tripped and he decided to stay prone in stead of standing up. what are the effects while prone to using a 2-h weapon? would feats such as cleave work while prone? is the only effects -4 to hit, and -4 DV? |
being prone has the following effects on combat:
A - Standing up from a prone position requires a move action and provokes attacks of opportunity.
B - Dropping to a prone position in your space is a free action.
C - Only melee weapons can be use while prone. Most ranged weapons can’t be used while the attacker is prone, but you can use a crossbow or shuriken while prone at no penalty.
D - Prone also bestows a -4 penalty to DV vs melee attacks but a +4 DV vs ranged attacks.
As long as the feat didn't require movement (such as great cleave) from the character I would have allowed it.
_________________
"Normally, both your asses would be dead as **** fried chicken, but you happen to pull this **** while I'm in a transitional period so I don't wanna kill you, I wanna help you. But I can't give you this case, because it don't belong to me. "
Last edited by Infidel-X on Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:03 am Post subject: Re: Using bardiche while prone |
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| Infidel-X wrote: |
C - Only melee weapons and most ranged weapons can’t be used while the attacker is prone, but you can use a crossbow or shuriken while prone at no penalty.
As long as the feat didn't require movement (such as great cleave) from the character I would have allowed it. |
Clarifiy C for me. Only melee and most ranged weaopns can not be used while prone? how about sharing what can be used as opposed to what can not be used. |
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Infidel-X
Weasel
Joined: 04 Mar 2004
Posts: 49
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:09 am Post subject: Re: Using bardiche while prone |
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| Anonymous wrote: | | Infidel-X wrote: |
C - Only melee weapons and most ranged weapons can’t be used while the attacker is prone, but you can use a crossbow or shuriken while prone at no penalty.
As long as the feat didn't require movement (such as great cleave) from the character I would have allowed it. |
Clarifiy C for me. Only melee and most ranged weaopns can not be used while prone? how about sharing what can be used as opposed to what can not be used. |
My bad...(long weekend!)
it should read:
C - Only melee weapons can be use while prone. Most ranged weapons can’t be used while the attacker is prone, but you can use a crossbow or shuriken while prone at no penalty.
Fixed
_________________
"Normally, both your asses would be dead as **** fried chicken, but you happen to pull this **** while I'm in a transitional period so I don't wanna kill you, I wanna help you. But I can't give you this case, because it don't belong to me. " |
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:15 am Post subject: Re: Using bardiche while prone |
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| Infidel-X wrote: | | Anonymous wrote: | | Infidel-X wrote: |
C - Only melee weapons and most ranged weapons can’t be used while the attacker is prone, but you can use a crossbow or shuriken while prone at no penalty.
As long as the feat didn't require movement (such as great cleave) from the character I would have allowed it. |
Clarifiy C for me. Only melee and most ranged weaopns can not be used while prone? how about sharing what can be used as opposed to what can not be used. |
My bad...(long weekend!)
it should read:
C - Only melee weapons can be use while prone. Most ranged weapons can’t be used while the attacker is prone, but you can use a crossbow or shuriken while prone at no penalty.
Fixed |
Well that sucks, I just can't see letting a 2 handed weapon be used at full power in a prone position. |
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argo
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Joined: 27 Feb 2004
Posts: 831
Location: Ventura, CA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:28 am Post subject: Re: Using bardiche while prone |
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| Anonymous wrote: |
Clarifiy C for me. Only melee and most ranged weaopns can not be used while prone? how about sharing what can be used as opposed to what can not be used. |
While prone you may use any melee weapon at a -4 penalty, regardless of weither it is light, one handed or two handed. You may not use a bow or sling. You may use a x-bow or shuriken while prone at no penalty. The rules never specify weither or not you can use other thrown weapons besides shuriken while prone, it only says "most ranged weapons cannot be used while prone" and then specifies x-bow and shuriken as exceptions. The strictest interpretation would be to say that only the x-bow and shuriken may be used prone. I personally also alow light throwing weapons to be used while prone as a house rule but not one handed or two handed throwing weapons.
In addition while prone you take a -4 penalty to DV against melee attacks but gain a +4 bonus to DV against ranged attacks.
As a house rule if one person is prone and grappling with a non-prone opponent I give the "up" grappler a +4 bonus to grapple checks, there is no penalty for the "down" grappler.
Hope that helps.
_________________
Yeah, well things are tough all over cupcake, and it rains on the just and the unjust alike...
... except in Califorina.
Remember: guns don't kill people, monkeys with guns kill people! /^o^; |
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argo
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Joined: 27 Feb 2004
Posts: 831
Location: Ventura, CA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:35 am Post subject: Re: Using bardiche while prone |
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| Anonymous wrote: |
Well that sucks, I just can't see letting a 2 handed weapon be used at full power in a prone position. |
A -4 to hit is hardly "full power". It is quite a steep penalty at any level. I will wager that a two handed fighter who might otherwise power attack for 2 or 3 points will not PA if he has to fight while prone. That alone simulates the difficulty of putting your full might into a swing while prone as far as I'm concerned.
To say nothing of his standing opponent who, narurally, is also a two handed fighter and is about to pump the full +4 bonus to hit into PA. Being prone is one of the worse conditions to suffer and trip fighters are notoriously powerful, it doesn't need to be made any stronger.
_________________
Yeah, well things are tough all over cupcake, and it rains on the just and the unjust alike...
... except in Califorina.
Remember: guns don't kill people, monkeys with guns kill people! /^o^; |
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Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:39 am Post subject: Re: Using bardiche while prone |
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| argo wrote: | | Anonymous wrote: |
Clarifiy C for me. Only melee and most ranged weaopns can not be used while prone? how about sharing what can be used as opposed to what can not be used. |
While prone you may use any melee weapon at a -4 penalty, regardless of weither it is light, one handed or two handed. You may not use a bow or sling. You may use a x-bow or shuriken while prone at no penalty. The rules never specify weither or not you can use other thrown weapons besides shuriken while prone, it only says "most ranged weapons cannot be used while prone" and then specifies x-bow and shuriken as exceptions. The strictest interpretation would be to say that only the x-bow and shuriken may be used prone. I personally also alow light throwing weapons to be used while prone as a house rule but not one handed or two handed throwing weapons.
In addition while prone you take a -4 penalty to DV against melee attacks but gain a +4 bonus to DV against ranged attacks.
As a house rule if one person is prone and grappling with a non-prone opponent I give the "up" grappler a +4 bonus to grapple checks, there is no penalty for the "down" grappler.
Hope that helps. |
| Quote: | being prone has the following effects on combat:
A - Standing up from a prone position requires a move action and provokes attacks of opportunity.
B - Dropping to a prone position in your space is a free action.
C - Only melee weapons can be use while prone. Most ranged weapons can’t be used while the attacker is prone, but you can use a crossbow or shuriken while prone at no penalty.
D - Prone also bestows a -4 penalty to DV vs melee attacks but a +4 DV vs ranged attacks.
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I think he covered that -4/+4 mod |
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dndhound
Shrew
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 6:01 am Post subject: Re: Using bardiche while prone |
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| argo wrote: | | Anonymous wrote: |
Well that sucks, I just can't see letting a 2 handed weapon be used at full power in a prone position. |
A -4 to hit is hardly "full power". It is quite a steep penalty at any level. I will wager that a two handed fighter who might otherwise power attack for 2 or 3 points will not PA if he has to fight while prone. That alone simulates the difficulty of putting your full might into a swing while prone as far as I'm concerned.
To say nothing of his standing opponent who, narurally, is also a two handed fighter and is about to pump the full +4 bonus to hit into PA. Being prone is one of the worse conditions to suffer and trip fighters are notoriously powerful, it doesn't need to be made any stronger. |
Had character surrounded by 3 hyenas, first round one trips, while other two bite for min damage. player hits for 20 points and cleaves the second for 20... second round 1 bite for min damage, player hits for 20 points.
I think that you should not be able to deal full strength dam while prone. where is the leverage?? most of the two handed weapons need leverage to make the attack fully effective. |
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Yokiboy
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 471
Location: Asgard
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 9:03 am Post subject: Re: Using bardiche while prone |
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| dndhound wrote: | | I think that you should not be able to deal full strength dam while prone. where is the leverage?? most of the two handed weapons need leverage to make the attack fully effective. |
But as argo pointed out, that -4 To Hit modification will affect the prone character's Power Attack potential. Of course depending on the combatants this might or might not affect the outcome of the battle (in your example it obviously didn't).
I can see why you'd like to disallow the use of 2-handed weapons while prone, same thing applies to using a shield and 1-handed weapon effectively IMO, but it's nothing I cannot live with, or house-rule against should I find the need to. 
TTFN,
Yokiboy
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- The Tower of the Elephant |
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argo
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Joined: 27 Feb 2004
Posts: 831
Location: Ventura, CA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 9:04 am Post subject: Re: Using bardiche while prone |
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| dndhound wrote: |
Had character surrounded by 3 hyenas, first round one trips, while other two bite for min damage. player hits for 20 points and cleaves the second for 20... second round 1 bite for min damage, player hits for 20 points.
I think that you should not be able to deal full strength dam while prone. where is the leverage?? most of the two handed weapons need leverage to make the attack fully effective. |
Ok, now surround him with three bill wielding soldiers with Power Attack, Improved Trip, and heavy armor. Generally speaking animals have low HP and crappy DV for their CR (no CR in Conan, but still...) They are designed to, they are animals. OTOH if a character hits the ground in the middle of a melee with humanoids, watch out. In Conan especially the potential for following up a trip with a massive damage inducing PA is great. I have played my share of trip fighters in my time and I have always given the GM headaches.
As always though, your game is your game. If you feel a need to make tripping even more powerful than it already is then please, don't let some shmuck on the internet tell you different.
_________________
Yeah, well things are tough all over cupcake, and it rains on the just and the unjust alike...
... except in Califorina.
Remember: guns don't kill people, monkeys with guns kill people! /^o^;
Last edited by argo on Mon Apr 19, 2004 10:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Yokiboy
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 471
Location: Asgard
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 9:27 am Post subject: Re: Using bardiche while prone |
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| argo wrote: | | Ok, now surround him with three bill wielding soldiers with Power Attack, Improved Trip, and heavy armor. |
Yup, I think the problem with your example dndhound, is that the hyenas were simply no match for the character. Had it been multiple human opponents, especially with the Power Attack feat, the outcome would probably have been much different and the character might have been forced to attempt standing up. The Multiple Attackers rule in Conan really helps Power Attackers, as does having a prone opponent. 
TTFN,
Yokiboy
_________________
There is always a way, if the desire be coupled with courage.
- The Tower of the Elephant |
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RogueCat
Cub
Joined: 19 Apr 2004
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:46 pm Post subject: Re: Using bardiche while prone |
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| Yokiboy wrote: | | argo wrote: | | Ok, now surround him with three bill wielding soldiers with Power Attack, Improved Trip, and heavy armor. |
Yup, I think the problem with your example dndhound, is that the hyenas were simply no match for the character. Had it been multiple human opponents, especially with the Power Attack feat, the outcome would probably have been much different and the character might have been forced to attempt standing up. The Multiple Attackers rule in Conan really helps Power Attackers, as does having a prone opponent.
TTFN,
Yokiboy |
Hi, I just wanted to chime in on this discussion as I was the player in question  and wanted to clearify a few points 
I agree that it would be very difficult to wield a heavy 2 handed weapon when prone not impossible mind you just difficult and had the ref made a ruling thus would have taken the action to stand. But when we paused the game to look up the prone rules and found no ruling about using 2h while prone it was agreed that only trained fighter types could do it. Not only that but a 2nd level Barbarian with a 20 STR and 18 DEX should have very little problem  WooHoo. Thus we thought this was the end of the question. UNTIL......
......he learned this week that I had aquired a copy of the Scrolls of Skelos while he continues to search in vain  He's just lookin for away to justify his revenge 
For shame "J" how could you sink so low??  where did your mom and I go wrong son?? 
Lov ya J-
PS - Joke
PSS - I have Skelos and you dooon't
PSSS - I still say its reasonable not to trust the Sygian scholar that refuses to leave his tent!!  |
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BhilJhoanz
Mongoose
Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 181
Location: Bloomington IN
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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I think the rules as stated work just fine . . .
My question is how did RogueCat, a 2nd level Barb deal 20 pts consistently like that?
Str 20 = +7 damage (2 handed)
and if he CAN do that (and is also clearly wearing armor) why is the GM just throwing hyenas at him and then complaining about them getting slaughtered? |
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dndhound
Shrew
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: Using bardiche while prone |
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| RogueCat wrote: |
Hi, I just wanted to chime in on this discussion as I was the player in question and wanted to clearify a few points
I agree that it would be very difficult to wield a heavy 2 handed weapon when prone not impossible mind you just difficult and had the ref made a ruling thus would have taken the action to stand. But when we paused the game to look up the prone rules and found no ruling about using 2h while prone it was agreed that only trained fighter types could do it. Not only that but a 2nd level Barbarian with a 20 STR and 18 DEX should have very little problem WooHoo. Thus we thought this was the end of the question. UNTIL......
Well there is going to be a house rule that prone attacks will use off-hand str damage, instead of 1.5.
......he learned this week that I had aquired a copy of the Scrolls of Skelos while he continues to search in vain He's just lookin for away to justify his revenge
Your purchase is just another sign of your addiction. I neither want or need the Scrolls of Skelos. (as the styigan is just an honest businessman, he has no need for books on the occult)
For shame "J" how could you sink so low?? where did your mom and I go wrong son??
Lov ya J-
PS - Joke
PSS - I have Skelos and you dooon't
PSSS - I still say its reasonable not to trust the Sygian scholar that refuses to leave his tent!! |
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